Question:
My sixteen year old son, Sean, is dating a fifteen year old girl, Rachel. She was caught sneaking out of her house in the middle of the night to go to a party with my son and she was caught drunk one night. Her mother's response to this was to severely limit the amount of time she could see Sean, making it only a few hours twice a week. They had been used to seeing each other every day for several hours for the past year. This strict mandate has been met with them having to sneak around more to try to see each other and now no one is cooperating. After Rachel's mother caught her sneaking around trying to see Sean, her mother then sent out letters from her lawyer saying that my son and I are to have no contact with Rachel and we will be prosecuted for various infractions from trespassing to contributing to the delinquency of a minor if we even call. She also put her daughter in the juvenile detention center and has told her that she can only come home if she does not try to see Sean again. They have been friends for over five years and they are not just going to stop seeing each other. I'm afraid my son is going to get into trouble because her daughter keeps begging him to come over and they can't just cut off the relationship and he doesn't know what to do.
I would like to send her a suggestion from a professional as to how this could be handled to insure cooperation, communication, and compassion from all. I believe that if the kids are allowed to see each other daily at a reasonable time that they won't be forced to sneak around and that Rachel has learned her lesson about drinking. She has told me that she was scared and never wants to feel like that again. I also believe that her mother is creating a lot of revenge and anger in our teens and I'm afraid of how that will play out. I think that if Rachel's mother, Toni, would show some concern for what her daughter wants....to see Sean....that her daughter would be better able to show some concern for what she wants as well. They are in a power struggle and I'm afraid of where it's going to take everyone, including my son. I think the kids would be willing to work out something that would meet everyone's needs and wants, if the mother would cooperate as well.
Anyway, what would you suggest and I will pass it on to her, hoping that she might listen to a professional. She won't listen to me because she thinks I'm just a lowly parent who doesn't know as much as her, the psychologist, but maybe she would listen to and have some respect for you since you and her have similar educational backgrounds. Rachel's mother is a psychologist with the juvenile detention center so I believe that educating her to another method of problem solving could, potentially, help many children, not just mine and hers. Thanks for any advice you can give. Kim
Answer:
Kim, My name is Jody McVittie. I am a family physician (with extra training in psychology), a parent educator and a parent of three teens (17, 15, 12). Your question brings up several challenging issues.
In reading your question I hear your description of the other mother's behavior as being pretty dramatic (to the point of putting her daughter in detention). I hear that you would like to get her to change her opinion because the kids "can't just cut off their relationship" and as a result they will resort to sneakiness. I hear you saying that one of the reasons you cannot get her to change is that she doesn't have a very high opinion of you: "I'm just a lowly parent." I hear you hoping that maybe someone ELSE could influence her. Positive Discipline is based on the belief/philosophy that we are all equally worthy of dignity and respect. This is easy when things are going well. It gets harder when we have to apply dignity and respect to people who are getting in our way, seem like they are making mistakes, or create pain in our own lives.
I am going to answer your question in parts.
First. Can you change the other mom?
I think the chances of influencing the mother are small, and, it is not respectful to try. I will not join you in trying to changer her, but I will give you suggestions that may help you better deal with the situation.
Her responses tell me that she is frightened and concerned and that she cares deeply for her daughter. She may be imagining that terrible things will happen to her daughter and notices that she is losing control which frightens her even more. It sounds like some of her concerns are reasonable. As an adult she felt like the relationship between her daughter and your son was overwhelming her daughter's sense of herself. Her daughter was making choices that risked her health and safety. She called for a cooling off period in the relationship which was not honored. Then she followed through by communicating clearly that what had been happening was not going to continue. Your hunch that the daughter will feel hurt, resentful and respond by asserting power (even passively) and revenge is probably pretty accurate. You can see that long term it is not good for the relationship between Mom and daughter. You and I may disagree with her methods, the actual actions she took might not be the most effective long term, but my sense (without personally knowing any of the parties) is that it comes from a place of deep caring. It may also be coming from a place of deep frustration. She may perceive that whatever your son does is ok with you (including sneaking out at night, getting her daughter drunk etc.). She has tried very hard to set limits that she feels can protect her daughter until her daughter grows up a little more. The limits were not honored. It is almost as if she is asking "What part of 'no' don't you understand?"
So can you change the Mom? No. Will talking to her, showing her expert opinions, getting others to talk to her help? More likely it will cause her to dig in even further and label you as an assistant to a juvenile delinquent (her inaccurate view of your son).
Second. What is the appropriate response when another parent does something that we don't agree with?
This is a tough one. It is always easier to see what other people are doing "wrong" than to look closely at our own issues. As parents it is important that we respect other parent's limits even though we don't agree with them. (You can talk with your son about how your family does it differently, but honor the other family's choices. You may "see" that one family's choices will create difficulties for them later, but it is important that they have the chance to learn from this. It is different when a child is being physically or emotionally abused, but I don't think you can make that case here.) If honoring other families limits, and sharing that respect for the other family with your son has not been your practice in the past, it might be one thing that you could gain from the situation.
If you as a parent feel impacted by another family's choices, you can talk to them privately (without the teens being there) about how you are impacted and what solution you might propose that might work for both families. Having that conversation with the other mom now is not likely to work, but after a cooling off period it might. If in the end you don't agree, do your best to honor the other family instead of undermining their process and values.
It might be helpful to share this learning with your son even now. I think that you can see that not respecting the other family's choices has actually had the unintended consequence of making things much worse for the daughter. Regarding the relationship between the mother and the daughter: inside you may get some satisfaction from the fact that they will "pay" for this. You can recognize that as a normal human response. You feel hurt, you have an urge to get back (revenge) and the fact that this is not good long term can be a little satisfying. But be careful. We are all part of a human community. It is really better if we learn our own "lessons" and stay out of trying to teach other people "their lessons." Instead of looking at how bad it will be for them, take a moment to look at how your family might have handled it differently. What would have happened if the limits (however unreasonable you felt they were) had been honored for a month or two? Both kids would have had time to cool off. Yes they would have been sad, yes it would have been hard....but long term it would have been a relationship that would be much more sustainable. It is really important for teens to have time to connect with themselves as they are growing and developing friendships and relationships. Encourage your son to share his feelings (anger, frustration, loss, sadness, etc) but not to make the situation worse by continuing to fight someone else's family.
Third. Are limits still important for teens?
Reasonable limits that have some flexibility are really important for teenagers as they navigate their own growing up. Teens fuss and create a lot of drama around limits, but when limits are reasonable and agreed to in advance, kids get a clear message of caring from them. What kind of agreements have you made to ensure that your limits are respected as well? (Note that the process of making agreements with teens is not hard, but takes practice. The "Positive Discipline for Teenagers" book has a good section on making agreements and following through on agreements if you think you need some help. Most libraries carry a copy if you don't want to buy it.) You and your son might benefit for some discussions resulting in an agreement about his behavior so that you don't need to worry about "him getting in trouble." He is responsible for his behavior, and he is big enough (with your support) to be able to handle this challenge in a way that is respectful to you and the other family, that doesn't make things worse for his friend (because, yes they could get worse), and in a way that benefits him long term. If you need more suggestions on this step feel free to write back to me.
Fourth. Life lessons.
One of my mentors talks about getting ready for life by "stretching psychological muscles." That means that besides the joy and happiness muscles, it is great for kids to stretch their sad or angry or disappointment muscles too. As adults we don't have to MAKE kids feel bad, life offers up plenty of those opportunities by itself. Our job as adults is not to get in the way of kids experiencing and learning from that part of life. Often, in the name of love or caring, we try to make things right or better for our kids so they won't have to experience pain or negative things. We do this by taking care of them, blaming others for the bad stuff, protecting them, avoiding conflict with our kids (and not respecting ourselves in the process), doing too much for them etc. When kids hit the rough bumps in life the best thing we can do as parents is listen and be empathetic. (This does not mean that you need to agree with them, but just be present with them in their pain). We can also express faith that they have the resources to solve the problem in a way that is respectful to ALL of the parties involved. We can offer help (but not give it unless it is asked for). Do keep in mind that your son will not be permanently damaged by this (even though it feels like it right now), and that there tremendous learning opportunities here.
Fifth: Specific suggestions
What can you do? The first place to start is with you. If you take a different view of the situation, for example that this teenager has a mother who is frightened and cannot see your daughter for who she is AND there is nothing you can do to change the mom. What can you do to make the situation better for you and your son?
Here are some ideas. Maybe one of them will inspire you.
- Recognize that there are some great life lessons in this for your son. He will meet lots of people that he thinks are leading their lives in non-helpful ways. But you cannot count on changing them.
- Focus on being effective instead of right. This mom's approach doesn't seem helpful right now, but if you focus on what her fears must be and try to be compassionate you might be more effective than if you try to "convince" her to change her ways. That doesn't mean you need to do anything (like talk to her). What it does mean is changing your attitude from "she's wacko" to "she is scared, cares about her daughter and doesn't have the skills to do this more gracefully"
- Recognize the reality of the situation. The mom is so scared and worried about losing control she has invoked the judicial system. There is not a whole lot you can do about that, except learn from it.
- Even though your son wanted to see his friend, sneaking around the limits was probably not the best solution. It was a mistake....and he can learn from the mistake...but continuing to push for an active friendship at this point will not make matters better.
- On a day when you are feeling good, and can let go of your anger about the other mom, sit down with your son and brainstorm (with him) how he might help his friend by taking the pressure off of her. This may really be a challenge because of the court order. Ideas might include: Have a mutual friend write her a letter telling her that he will be her friend no matter what, but that he realizes making her mom mad right now might be fun...it won't help. Set up a meeting with the case worker to let the case worker know he wants to be a friend and ask the case worker for suggestions. Write a letter of apology to her mom for the "sneaky behavior" and request limited phone privileges.
- Teenage friendships can be intense. While it is certainly true that kids feel like they HAVE to be with the other person every day as adults we know that friendships sometimes benefit greatly from "cooling off" periods. It is in the cooling off periods that the teens re center on who they are as separate from their friend and life re-balances. It is an important part of the dependence to independence to interdependence developmental challenge that they are mastering.
Finally, you are right on target with your request to resolve this in a way that "insures cooperation, communication, and compassion from all." I think that you probably get from my response that you cannot guarantee that. All you can do is change you and be as respectful to the other family as possible. You'll have to do this with the blind faith that they will "get it" and return the favor. Given the previous relationship that is a huge leap. If you can step back from your needs and see the world from her point of view (and without judgment!) you may be able to see where an apology on your part might make things move forward. Maybe not. And maybe things are not cooled down enough yet. On the other hand, the other mom has not asked for help. I cannot "educate" her unless she wants to learn (and neither can you). If she had written and asked for help, she would have gotten a very different answer. This one is for you.
Best wishes! Jody McVittie, MD, Certified Positive Discipline Associate.
Kim,
You are welcome to share "your" answer with the other mom. I still do not want to give advice to someone who has not been able to share their side of the story. It doesn't feel respectful.
Positive Discipline does not have a one size fits all approach to curfews or drugs or alcohol. Each situation with different adults and kids can benefit from a unique response. In general the approach is based on deep mutual respect, but also considers the long term results and the developmental stage of the kids (and sometimes adults) involved.
Each family makes choices that fit for them. In our house we don't have "curfews" but when any of the teens will be out in the evening we make sure that there is an agreement ahead of time about when they will be home. (This is mostly so we won't wake up worrying.) Sometimes coming to an agreement not so easy. Key to getting an agreement is maintaining self respect. As parents we don't agree to something that we are not comfortable with. We do our best to understand that as our children turn into young adults that they need both more responsibility and more freedom....but we still have to feel ok with the agreement.
Are the agreements always kept? No. When an agreement is not kept we follow the steps of follow through (you can find them in the Positive Discipline for Teenagers book). After we are cooled down and can be respectful (usually the next day), we ask our son or daughter what the agreement was...and then come up with a plan that deals with the situation. (Usually another agreement.) We don't expect perfection. We all make mistakes. But we do expect our kids to respect our need to know that they are safe and to keep their agreements. If we did not address the agreement that was not kept, our kids would get the message that agreements were not important.
Making agreements sounds to many parents like a "weak tool." My experience using it with my kids and the stories of the parents in the parenting classes I teach has convinced me that instead it is one of the more powerful tools we have.
Kim, as you might imagine, answering questions that people write in can be a challenge. We don't get "all" the information. Sometimes we have to read between the lines a little bit. Sometimes we go by our "gut" feel....(and sometimes we are just wrong as a result!). I can tell you have some valid concerns, that you are looking for solutions and trying to make the best out of this situation. But I must also be honest. Something about your question is unsettling to me. I am not sure exactly what it is so I am going to guess (and risk being way off.) I think that there is still something that is going on between you and your son that I don't understand. I am not sure why you seem so invested in your 16 year old son maintaining such an intense relationship with this 15 year old girl. Even though your words seem like you are headed in the right direction (looking for a solution etc.) I am concerned that your advocacy for your son may be enabling him. We define enabling as "getting between young people and the consequences of their actions." This is a problem that he and his honey created. He is a human being, he has desires...but he also, even as a teen, has control over those desires. Yes, the two of them got themselves into a sticky wicket. And the other mom, in her fear may have over reacted...but still, it should be their (the kids) job, not yours to come up with a solution that both sides can agree to. You can be present and support him, brainstorm with him. But don't take responsibility for his problem. The assumption that he cannot control himself and will continue to be sneaky....will also not be helpful (because it assumes that he is not and cannot be responsible for his actions). What ever solution you all come up with will involve the kids taking more, not less responsibility for their actions (and may not include a lot of freedom to begin with).
Best wishes,
Jody McVittie, MD.
Question No. 2
I believe the other mom may be open to suggestions. Last time we talked we discussed gathering as many options as possible so she could choose the one that suits her best. That's why I was looking for an opinion to give her on this and I do believe that it will be best coming from an "outside" source.....easier for her to accept.
I know that her need for her daughter's safety is of utmost importance and both my son and I want to be able to work with her to assure her that this can be insured, even while allowing them to maintain a relationship. I want to meet her needs in this situation and understand that she has a very positive, loving intent in what she is doing. It is extremely important to me not to step on her needs/desires to insure her daughter's safety. In fact, it is this very need/desire that I want to meet. I just also want to meet the kids need/desire to maintain a relationship.
Anyway, I am trying to gather some ideas to give her for alternatives that will meet her need to insure her daughter's safety. I believe she is open to ideas as we have talked about this before, so if there is anything you can suggest in a general way regarding teen curfews and alcohol experimentation and how these problems would be handled in a Positive Discipline manner, I would appreciate it.
Thanks!
Kim
Answer No. 2
Kim,
You are welcome to share "your" answer with the other mom. I still do not want to give advice to someone who has not been able to share their side of the story. It doesn't feel respectful.
Positive Discipline does not have a one size fits all approach to curfews or drugs or alcohol. Each situation with different adults and kids can benefit from a unique response. In general the approach is based on deep mutual respect, but also considers the long term results and the developmental stage of the kids (and sometimes adults) involved.
Each family makes choices that fit for them. In our house we don't have "curfews" but when any of the teens will be out in the evening we make sure that there is an agreement ahead of time about when they will be home. (This is mostly so we won't wake up worrying.) Sometimes coming to an agreement is not so easy. Key to getting an agreement is maintaining self respect. As parents we don't agree to something that we are not comfortable with. We do our best to understand that as our children turn into young adults that they need both more responsibility and more freedom....but we still have to feel ok with the agreement.
Are the agreements always kept? No. When an agreement is not kept we follow the steps of follow through (you can find them in the Positive Discipline for Teenagers book). After we are cooled down and can be respectful (usually the next day), we ask our son or daughter what the agreement was...and then come up with a plan that deals with the situation. (Usually another agreement.) We don't expect perfection. We all make mistakes. But we do expect our kids to respect our need to know that they are safe and to keep their agreements. If we did not address the agreement that was not kept, our kids would get the message that agreements were not important.
Making agreements sounds to many parents like a "weak tool." My experience using it with my kids, and the stories of the parents in the parenting classes I teach has convinced me that instead it is one of the more powerful tools we have.
Kim, as you might imagine, answering questions that people write in can be a challenge. We don't get "all" the information. Sometimes we have to read between the lines a little bit. Sometimes we go by our "gut" feel.... (and sometimes we are just wrong as a result!). I can tell you have some valid concerns that you are looking for solutions and trying to make the best out of this situation. But I must also be honest. Something about your question is unsettling to me. I am not sure exactly what it is so I am going to guess (and risk being way off.) I think that there is still something that is going on between you and your son that I don't understand. I am not sure why you seem so invested in your 16 year old son maintaining such an intense relationship with this 15 year old girl. Even though your words seem like you are headed in the right direction (looking for a solution etc.) I am concerned that your advocacy for your son may be enabling him. We define enabling as "getting between young people and the consequences of their actions." This is a problem that he and his honey created. He is a human being, he has desires...but he also, even as a teen, has control over those desires. Yes, the two of them got themselves into a sticky wicket. And the other mom, in her fear may have over reacted...but still, it should be their (the kids) job, not yours to come up with a solution that both sides can agree to. You can be present and support him, brainstorm with him. But don't take responsibility for his problem. The assumption that he cannot control himself and will continue to be sneaky....will also not be helpful (because it assumes that he is not and cannot be responsible for his actions). What ever solution you all come up with will involve the kids taking more, not less responsibility for their actions (and may not include a lot of freedom to begin with).
Best wishes,
Jody McVittie, MD.
