School Discipline
Question:
I'd like your opinion on the following discipline technique used by one of my
7th grade son's teachers:
My son's table (4 students) was told to leave the classroom during correction of
a test because someone at the table was talking. The teacher knew who was
talking. She told all four students that the guilty party needed to come forward
and confess or the three non-guilty students needed to confidentially come
forward and tell her who was doing the talking.
In talking with this teacher, I was told that she uses peer pressure as a
technique for maintaining control over her class. She can't keep her eye on
everyone and relies on students to tell her who is misbehaving. In this specific
instance, she told the 4 students that each of them would receive a zero on the
last page of their test unless one of them revealed who did the talking. She
knows it was not my son, but she maintains her policy of holding the entire
table responsible for the actions of anyone at the table. I do not like this
technique. It requires students to tattle on each other. I'd like your opinion
of this technique and whether you think it is effective or appropriate and why.
Thanks for your help.
Brenda
Answer:
Brenda,
My name is Jody McVittie and I am part of the team that answers questions for
the website. I teach Positive Discipline to parents and teachers in the Puget
Sound area. Your question challenges me a little bit. Here is why: You know you
don't like what she is doing and think it is "wrong"...and it seems like you are
trying to line people up on your side to prove your point. One of the things
that I have learned working with teachers is that telling them that they are
"wrong" is not the best (most effective) place to start. I unfortunately learned
this the hard way.....but hopefully you can learn from my experience.
It does make sense after all. If my neighbor came over and told me I was
parenting wrong, and had the goods to prove it, how would I feel? Would I feel
encouraged? Invited to try a better way? Would I just love to invite my neighbor
over again and again to hear that message? Of course not, and if your neighbor
did the same thing you probably wouldn't either.
It is hard for parents to relate to the incredible pressures on teachers these
days. They have enormous responsibilities (more than 5 years ago), they feel
like they are measured by unfair testing, feel like the kids have less family
support and come to school more needy than ever etc... It is really overwhelming
to the point of deep discouragement for some. On top of that, most teachers get
very little effective teaching in classroom management. Teaching is a very
difficult job and teachers are just human beings like the rest of us.
I am not saying that the teacher is right...or wrong... but that is how she has
chosen to manage her classroom. (Positive Discipline in the Classroom advocates
teaching students to focus on solutions that are respectful to everyone, but
that is not the point here.) If you or your son wants to have influence over her
style the most effective way to do that involves several steps. 1) Hold her
generally in high regard. People who feel liked are more easily influenced by
those who like them. This can't be phony....it is about finding the best in her
and really seeing that as her primary feature. 2) Develop a relationship based
on number one. (This takes more time than you have left this school year) 3)
After the first two steps have your son set up a time for a meeting where he can
gently explain his position to the teacher in a non - judgmental way. There can
be no expectation for change. But teachers often respond the best to students
who respect them enough to kindly tell them how they feel and offer alternative
suggestions that might work better. If the teacher is not too discouraged by
other parts of her job and life this strategy has the best chance of working.
(Other things that do NOT work include going to the principal, complaining about
the teacher to other parents...etc. - you get the picture.)
In the meantime, this is a wonderful opportunity for your son to practice seeing
the world from another's point of view. Life is not perfect, life is not fair
and sometimes we end up in situations where it does not feel like we are being
treated respectfully. What can your son do to make the best of it? One of my
colleagues refers to this as an opportunity to stretch psychological muscles. It
is a great life skill. It grows human beings who are more empathetic, more
resilient, and more able to roll with the punches of life.
You obviously have created a wonderful environment for your son. It is REALLY
disturbing when others cannot honor that. It is important to realize that this
treatment will not hurt him permanently (he may get bruised for a bit) and that
his ability to deal with it, understanding that the world is not perfect, will
be a source of strength, not a weakness. The foundation you have created for him
at home gives him the ability to use this as an opportunity.
Best wishes!
Jody McVittie
Dear Dr. McVittie,
I wrote to you to find out if there was something I didn't know about the
technique of holding groups of students responsible for the behavior of one. I
was concerned about using this technique in any situation, but most especially
in a case where the teacher actually knew who had done the talking. I'm really
not "trying to line up people on my side to prove my point." When I spoke with
this teacher, I started out the conversation telling her what a great science
teacher she is, how much my son has learned and how much he enjoys her class. I
then asked for a simple explanation of why she'd use that technique when she
knew the guilty student. I was never given an answer. That was why I was
frustrated.
In my email to you, I asked you if you thought the use of this technique was
effective or appropriate and why. You answered my question with a long
discussion of the problems teachers have maintaining discipline, the pressures
they have on them and how difficult a job teaching is for most teachers.
I've worked with my son for years trying to teach him the very things you
mentioned in your email. He's going to have to figure out conflicts with people
in all areas of his life and this is just one of them.
I'd love to actually get an answer to the question I had and not just because I
want to prove myself "right," but to actually try to learn if there is any
evidence that this technique works well in a classroom.
Brenda
Dear Brenda, Whoops! I obviously misread your question and your intent. I am
sorry about that. I appreciate that you took the time to write back and set me
straight. Lets see if I get closer to the mark this time. My understanding of
your question now is: Is "there is any evidence that this technique works well
in a classroom?" The simple answer is "no." And I am quite comfortable saying
this because I have spent quite a bit of time over the last three months
reviewing the educational literature for evidence of what does work.
To make things a little more complicated though, there is also no evidence that
singling one kid out and punishing them for what they did works either. There is
no evidence that punishment has anything but very short term results. You could
argue that at least punishing only one kid only makes one kid feel bad and I
think that argument has some merit.....but in this case I don't think that the
kids could get out of feeling bad no matter what they did.
The events that you describe cannot be simply labeled as punishing one or the
group. To me, it seems like the kids were put in an incredible double bind. They
either had to admit guilt or tattle on someone. From the kids point of view they
had to clearly choose allegiances: their table mates or the teacher. The cost of
choosing their table mates was the punishment of the teacher. The cost of
choosing the teacher was some unknown social cost. No wonder your son was
uncomfortable. And I agree with you that these methods are unlikely to gain the
teacher respect (and thus diminish her influence and the students eagerness to
cooperate in the future). I think that maybe one of the reasons you didn't get
an answer back from the teacher is that she doesn't feel so good about it
either...but may not be trained in (or know about) some of the other
alternatives to help get cooperation. She may have felt like she was in a tough
spot too...but maybe you will have planted a seed for her.
Are there better methods? We think so. We don't have a lot of evidence to
document them yet though in schools. (Though you can check the Ann Platt article
on the website under resources/research.) The Positive Discipline techniques
rely on focusing on solutions and building a classroom sense of community and
cooperation (then the teacher doesn't have to pay attention to every single
thing in the classroom because the kids take some ownership and don't get
benefit from creating mischief). This is an authoritative model. It is based on
using kindness and firmness at the same time. While the research on schools is
not as complete as we would like, there is excellent evidence that using an
authoritative (kind and firm) parenting style results in higher academic
achievement and less social and health risk behavior (smoking, drugs and sexual
activity).
Brenda, I hope this answers your question as it was intended. I get it that you
are not trying to change the teacher. Jane Nelsen made a few comments as well
and I have clipped them in below. If we are still off the mark, try again or
give me a call. 425 335 4460. I'd be glad to try again or even give you the
references to the research evidence.
Best wishes,
Jody McVittie
Hi Brenda, I would like to make a few comments about this. I'll start with, "It
depends." It depends on if the whole group is held responsible to find a
solution. I don't believe the whole group should be held responsible for a
punishment. Let me give you an unrelated example. When two kids are fighting in
the back of the car, I suggest that parents pull over to the side of the road
and sit and read a book until both say they are ready to stop fighting. Several
things make this effective.
1. Letting kids know in advance that this is what you will do.
2. Letting them know if advance that you will need to hear from both of them
that they are ready.
3. Asking them to repeat back their understanding of what you are going to do
and what you need to hear from them -- and how many of them you have to hear it
from.
4. Following through with kindness and firmness at the same time. This means
simply pulling over to the side of the road to read until they say they are
ready.
5. Not saying a word, (no lectures, no reminding) but kindly and firmly waiting
until the kids remember.
I also treat kids the same when they are fighting. I don't look for who started
it (because you can't really know -- too often we don't see the action that
started it.) I will offer them a choice. "Kids, do you want to go outside to
fight or would one of you like to put this on the family meeting agenda." Or I
might say, "Would you like to go to separate rooms until you are ready to stop
fighting, or would you like to use the "Wheel of Choice" to find a solution to
your problem.
So, that is the case for how I might treat children the same at home. In the
classroom I might say, "We need to stop correcting the test until everyone has
stopped talking." Or, I might say, "Who has an idea about how we can solve the
problem of talking." In that way, I'm holding everyone responsible. I'm not
focusing on blame, but on solutions. I don't believe the teacher could know who
is the one who talked. One child may have whispered and she didn't hear that.
To summarize, I think peer pressure works well when focused on solutions and
helping each other. I don't think it is effective for long-term results when
used for blame, shame, or any other form of punishment. The three criteria for
Positive Discipline:
1. Is it respectful?
2. Is it effective long-term? (Does it consider what the child is thinking,
feeling, deciding, learning?)
3. Does it teach important life skills (respect, concern for others,
problem-solving, cooperation)
This is what the book, "Positive Discipline in the Classroom" is all about.
So, this is what we believe, I think Jody McVittie's point was that you can't
change the teacher, so the only thing you can focus on is what your son could
possibly do under such circumstances. I hope this is helpful. Jane Nelsen
